Obama Looking to Revise Democratic Nomination Rules

The Washington Post is today reporting that Obama is looking to change© the way the Democratic Nominee is selected.

Sen. Barack Obama's presidential campaign will call next week for the creation of a commission to revise the rules for selecting a presidential nominee in 2012, with a goal of reducing the power of superdelegates, whose role became a major point of contention during the long battle for the Democratic nomination between Obama and Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton.

Now think about that for a second. Obama won the nomination based on the current system. Why would he want to change that system? Because he is an honest broker, as he has shown time and time again. This was proven again last week when the Obama camp made clear their desire to see Hillary Clinton's supporters properly represented at the Democratic Convention this year.

Several Hillary Clinton supporters complained about the way the nominee is selected, some raising fairly valid points. But then some even went as far as accusing Obama and the DNC of "cheating" - but thankfully the ones who went that far in their criticisms are a small, lunatic fringe. The reality is the Obama team devised a plan to win based on the system as it is, and executed that plan to near-perfection.

The proposed changes grew out of discussions between Obama's campaign, officials at the Democratic National Committee and representatives from Clinton's campaign, Plouffe said.

The traditional media would have us all believe that Barack and Hillary hate one another, that they cannot work together, that there is "strife" in the Democratic Party.

Seems to me those statements by the traditional media could not possibly be further from the truth. I know, shocking, isn't it?

The other major area the commission will be asked to examine is the operation of caucuses in states that choose that process rather than a primary. The caucuses drew criticism, particularly from the Clinton campaign, which said that they restricted participation and that in some states they lacked the necessary infrastructure to ensure fairness.

What's this? Obama wants to address one of Camp Hillary's main concerns about the 2008 "over but not forgotten" Primary contest? Geez, you'd think the guy wasn't as conspiring, arrogant and evil as the PUMA types (all 2 dozen of them) try to make him out to be!

I guess the point is this: Next time you hear the traditional media spouting off about how much internal strife there is between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, just remember that reality tells a different story. Unfortunately (for Americans), that story isn't going to drive ratings in a way that sensationalized headlines like "Democrats Divided!" will. So don't expect the official storyline to change any time soon.



Display:


Tips, Flames, Recs (2.00 / 9)

For a diary that isn't obsessing over possible VP choices?


Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 02:54:27 PM EST

rec'd. (2.00 / 3)

someone had a diary on this yesterday.  great move by obama and the dnc!


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 02:58:47 PM EST

Re: rec'd. (2.00 / 1)

I did not see that yesterday, but I was not surfing the tubes of teh internets much yesterday.


Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 03:02:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Revise Democratic Nomination Rules (1.66 / 6)

won the nomination based on the current system. Why would he want to change that system?
It's simple; he already received the benefit. Now it's time to throw a bone and appear diplomatic.


by soyousay on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 03:08:38 PM EST

stupid comment (2.00 / 4)

he wouldn't have had any power to do anything about it before he won.


by JJE on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 03:13:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: stupid comment (none / 0)

Like I said before; it won't score any points except with those who already support him.


by soyousay on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 03:31:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: stupid comment (2.00 / 2)

Because to bitter people such as yourself, "points" is all that matters.

What matters to me is revising the system to make it fairer to all states and voters.

But go ahead and continue sulking. Nothing to see here.


Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 03:33:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ahem (1.66 / 3)

Are you frustrated and worried that Obama might lose? Obama won the primary fairly under the Democratic Party Rules. The rules are screwed up IMO but that's not Obama's problem. That being said, I think he lacks experience and is not ready to be president, I also have other problems with Obama...that doesn't make me "bitter," that's my opinion.


by soyousay on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 04:07:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ahem (2.00 / 2)

No, actually I am very confident that Obama is going to win, because he has the strongest ground game ever seen.

And your problems with Obama stem directly from your infatuation with Hillary clinton, so yeah, you're bitter.


Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 04:10:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Actually.... (1.50 / 2)

I think you're bitter toward those who don't see eye to eye with you when it comes to Obama. Since I don't support McCain or Obama, I really don't have a dog in the fight. Since you brought Hillary Clinton up, I do think she could help Obama tremendously.


by soyousay on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 04:15:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actually.... (2.00 / 1)

No, I'm only perturbed by people like yourself whose criticism of Obama is so obviously rooted in a big vat of sour grapes.

I'd do the whole "you know the vast majority of Obama's positions are as progressive, or more progressive than Hillary clinton", but you've heard it all before and already made up your mind to be a malcontent.

And whomever Obama picks, I'm sure he and his team will have weighed all the potential pluses and minuses, have weighed what that person would bring to the ticket, etc, so whether it's Hillary or it's Joe Biden, or its a dark horse, I am confident it will have been the right choice.

And that's because I believe in Democratic principals and want a Democratic president. You wanted Hillary and since you didn't get what you wanted, you're sitting this one out.

How lucky are we in the progressive movement to have such a champion as yourself?


Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 04:26:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actually.... (none / 0)

No, I'm only perturbed by people like yourself whose criticism of Obama is so obviously rooted in a big vat of sour grapes
Sure you are; that's why you resort to name calling an unfounded accusations.
I'd do the whole "you know the vast majority of Obama's positions are as progressive, or more progressive than Hillary clinton", but you've heard it all before and already made up your mind to be a malcontent.
Since I consider myself a centrist, I don't believe my viewpoints are that close to Obama's. It's difficult to tell because he's changed many of his positions.
And that's because I believe in Democratic principals and want a Democratic president.
That's a nice line. I really don't think superdelates represent Democratic principals very well though. I think the party is paying for that debacle in many ways.
You wanted Hillary and since you didn't get what you wanted, you're sitting this one out.
I'm sitting this one out because I don't think Obama or McCain will make a good president.


by soyousay on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 04:35:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actually.... (2.00 / 1)

All one has to do is look at your long history of bitter comments and pissing and moaning about Hillary to see where you're coming from.

So again, I'll reiterate that you're just a bitter dead ender who didn't get their way. But rather than being content with taking your ball and going home (by not having a preference), you've decided to sit here at MyDD and enlighten us with your self-righteous centrist rants.

Yawn.


Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 04:38:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actually.... (1.00 / 2)

All one has to do is look at your long history of bitter comments and pissing and moaning about Hillary to see where you're coming from.
I'm a Hillary supporter, I never denied that. I also thinks her knowledge is much greater than Obama's when it comes to political issues. What's your point?
So again, I'll reiterate that you're just a bitter dead ender
With all the name calling, it seems to me that you are angry. Why worry? Don't you have any confidence in you candidate?
So again, I'll reiterate that you're just a bitter dead ender who didn't get their way. But rather than being content with taking your ball and going home (by not having a preference), you've decided to sit here at MyDD and enlighten us with your self-righteous centrist rants.
I'm merely expressing my opinion. If you look back at the comments made, I believe you are the one who is making accusations and name calling which really isn't very helpful IMO.


by soyousay on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 04:46:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revise Democratic Nomination Rules (2.00 / 3)

So everything Obama does is either wrong (on issues where you disagree), or pandering (on issues where you agree).  Does that not seem closed-minded to you?  Is there anything Obama has said or done that you agree with, without reservations?


by bottl4 on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 03:16:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revise Democratic Nomination Rules (1.00 / 2)

It's not wrong; he's not going to score any points with the "change."

Is there anything Obama has said or done that you agree with
Yes. He cut ties with Rev. Wright.


by soyousay on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 03:28:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revise Democratic Nomination Rules (2.00 / 1)

Ah, the old back-handed compliment...

Was that your attempt at "appearing diplomatic"?


Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 03:30:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revise Democratic Nomination Rules (none / 0)

I gave you an honest answer.


by soyousay on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 03:32:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revise Democratic Nomination Rules (none / 0)

No you didn't.


If you hold a cat by the tail you learn things you cannot learn any other way.
by Jess81 on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 05:59:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Funny (2.00 / 1)

It's interesting how Wright and Rezko just happen to pop up in our conversations all of a sudden again.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 03:36:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Funny (none / 0)

No it's not, I was asked a question and I gave an honest answer.


by soyousay on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 04:09:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Funny (none / 0)

Yesh, whats the big deal? ITs not like he brought something totally unrelated into the conversation, like say, Mark Penn's shady dealings or anything...


Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 04:11:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Funny (none / 0)

Well it's not a problem for you but we all don't see eye to eye on every issue. I had a problem with Wright and I've said so from the beginning. Around that time, Clinton had a winning streak....it's possible that I'm not the only one who has a problem with Wright.


by soyousay on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 04:20:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revise Democratic Nomination Rules (none / 0)

I know you didn't think it was wrong, you thought it was pandering.  My contention is that those appear to be the only two options you allow for with respect to Obama.
So, your response is that Obama's repudiation of Rev Wright wasn't wrong or pandering?  Well, I agre but I'm not entirely sure you're being honest.  If I were to look back through your comments at the time, is that what I'd see?  
by bottl4 on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 04:10:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revise Democratic Nomination Rules (none / 0)

CNN had a special on Obama. Why don't you watch that when it's replayed. I thought the info portrayed him rather well. He came off as an overachiever in his professional/political life; he moved up the ladder quickly and it didn't seem as if he had much time to do the people's work.


by soyousay on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 04:26:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revise Democratic Nomination Rules (2.00 / 2)

To appear diplomatic? Do you even know the definition of the word "diplomatic"?

Appearing diplomatic is the same thing as being diplomatic. Being diplomatic means you make efforts to assuage others concerns. That's exactly what Obama is doing here.

Somehow, some way, I don't think this answer will satisfy you.


Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 03:23:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It won't score any points. (1.00 / 1)

That's the way I see it. What did he really do? Change something that he benefitted from. By doing this, is he saying that there's a problem with the way he won? The damage has already done; the only thing that will help is time.


by soyousay on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 03:51:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It won't score any points. (2.00 / 4)

And of the countless other Democratic Nominees that have benefited from the system the way it is, how many of them made any effort to change the rules?

And who is the first one to make such an effort?


Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 03:56:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It won't score any points. (none / 0)

crickets


Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 04:28:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It won't score any points. (none / 0)

Well, 'crickets' from him.  I read it, thought you made a very good point, and gave you mojo and applause.


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 07:29:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revise Democratic Nomination Rules (none / 0)

uprated for TR abuse.  This is an obviously plausible explanation for the move--equally plausible as the motive presented by the diarist.  Just depends on how you see Obama.


by slynch on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 05:05:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revise Democratic Nomination Rules (none / 0)

Which is why it's an empty comment; it doesn't speak to the issue at all.  "Obama sucks" would have as much content.

I think the tr's are based on the commenter's history - all his/her remarks are like that.  One liner defenses of McCain or attacks on Obama that don't really say anything about anything other than the diarist's general attitude, repeated ad nauseum.


If you hold a cat by the tail you learn things you cannot learn any other way.
by Jess81 on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 06:03:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This troll looks very undiplomatic. (none / 0)

Just look at him, flippin' us the bird.  We do not approve!

(And can anybody seriously question my use of this image?)


by Dumbo on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 08:09:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Good move (2.00 / 2)

I also consider it very possible that an Obama administration would push for a change to the Electoral College so that we operate on popular votes.  Given that every president gets elected based on being able to game the EC, it is not something that will be changed before an honest broker shows up to work against his or her own interest.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 03:13:17 PM EST

Re: Good move (2.00 / 2)

In a (my) perfect world, the President would be selected based on the popular vote, and all citizens would be able to cast that vote during a one week period, so as not to disenfranchise people who, ya know, work for a living and have kids and what not.


Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 03:27:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Seems unlikely (none / 0)

Big Media would hate it; voting over the space of a week doesn't have the drama of a one-night blowout.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 03:34:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I disagree with the popular vote (none / 0)

argument. Instead of enfranchisement you are actually disenfranchising small states because the candidates won't campaign there. I like the EV system because it makes them campaign around the country as opposed to the big 5 states. Also big states would have MUCH more influence and power.


by SocialDem on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 03:41:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I disagree with the popular vote (2.00 / 1)

I'd propose that we revise the EC so that it's not about the number of representatives a state actually has in a house of 435, but the number of representatives a state would have if (a) the least-populous state had one representative and (b) the House were unlimited in size.  That would increase the number of electoral votes in states like California and make things more fair (as it stands, a Wyoming resident's vote is worth three times that of a Californian's) while not ditching the idea that candidates should have to be president of the whole country, not just the major population centers.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 03:48:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm fine with that (2.00 / 1)

I've talked this over with some others, and from what I can gather, the popular vote mechanic would push the campaigns mostly out to the mid-size (~100K) towns, because the city is largely Democratic and the country is largely Republican.  There isn't a lot of point to campaigning in big cities if they're mostly Democratic anyway.

You gotta understand; I'm not a states-centric guy when it comes to electing the president.  The President of the United States is the leader of the people of the United States and controlled territory, not of the states themselves.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 04:11:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

True, we are electing (none / 0)

a President for ALL of the states. But like I said above I fear if we do in fact go with a PV system the big 5 states interests will get pandered to. The EC was intended to give every state a shot at being significant so as to address ALL the interests and not just the interests of a few regions of the country.


by SocialDem on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 10:17:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

In essence (none / 0)

a PV system would decentralize the power of the gov't leaving the big shots and a select few states to determine outcome. Do you honestly think under a PV system they would campaign and give a voice to Alaskans? or how about Montana?


by SocialDem on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 10:20:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I disagree with the popular vote (none / 0)

I disagree--you're still thinking in the "state" context.  Under a popular vote scenario, there's nothing magical about state boundaries.  Instead, what would possibly happen is that small towns would get ignored.  But not entire states.


by slynch on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 05:08:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I disagree with the popular vote (none / 0)

</q>I disagree--you're still thinking in the "state" context.  Under a popular vote scenario, there's nothing magical about state boundaries.  Instead, what would possibly happen is that small towns would get ignored.  But not entire states.</q>

You are wrong. There are "magical" things about state boundaries. Every state has different interests and industries to tend to. If we did in fact impose a PV system the candidates and parties would be heavily pandering to the big 5 states. Much like how Iowa is pandered to because of the fact it is the first primary state.


by SocialDem on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 10:15:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I disagree with the popular vote (none / 0)

No, you are wrong.  Industries do not follow state boundaries either.  While a state may be defined by a particular industry, most industries are not defined by a single state.  And the reason Iowa is given so much attention is precisely because our system currently operates on a "state" system of election.

Senators are elected based on the popular vote of their state.  As a result, the larger cities within the state get the most attention.  Not the larger counties.  Same thing would happen under a PV system--the big cities would be pandered to, and not just the big 5 states.

Hell, the top 5 states only have about 1/3 of the US population, and of the top 10 US cities, at least three aren't in these states.  Indeed, to accumulate half the population you'd have to visit the top 200 cities in the US.  So, I think you'd visit most states.


by slynch on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 02:08:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Revise Democratic Nomination (2.00 / 1)

there is the caucus system and the way delegates are divided.

but I'd mainly like to see the DNC come up with a certification process, where potential candidates are rated in various areas, and I'd like the DNC to do the fact checking when our candidates run in primaries, against each other, and put a stop to name calling and character slurs.    

Yes, they get along fine, and in some of the debates that showed, even before it was ended.  

I hope he opens this up to party members so we can have our opinions and preferences out there.  the popular vote is very important, and also the number of Democratic votes and the electoral college numbers.  

when we're selecting who to be the candidate, it should be nice and fair and we ought to be able to easily compare where they stand on issues, what's they've done, what they've voted for and against, how they can debate, how good they are at making their points. There are likely many would would make fine leaders if there were some sort of 'standard' they'd first have to meet.

No insult to John McCain meant, but I think in a head to head quiz about history, and civics, Barack would win.  


what a relief
by anna shane on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 03:22:00 PM EST

Re: Revise Democratic Nomination (none / 0)

Great comment.

And don't worry about insulting John McCain. He's been doing it to our nominee relentlessly for the past 3 weeks. He certainly deserves it.


Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 03:25:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Certification is a terrible idea (none / 0)

The process doesn't need more subjective analysis treated with great authority. Fact checking also frequently involves subjective calls. And I guess you want the DNC to be calling our candidates truth-stretchers every time they spin something. Putting an end to name calling? What... would you put that in the platform? Maybe have a bylaw about no meanies?

Christ on a crutch the republicans would have a field day with that and whatever whimpy ass-kissing candidate came out of a nomination process like the one you describe.

we ought to be able to easily compare where they stand on issues, what's they've done, what they've voted for and against, how they can debate, how good they are at making their points.

Welcome to the internet. All that information was available to us during this primary campaign. I don't think you're asking for more information, you're asking for more authoritative analysis of the information. You're asking for a system where voters get more establishment clues about who they're supposed to vote for. You're trying to strengthen the factors that lead to mindless voting in the first place.

I'm sorry if my response seems harsh, but your seemingly well-intentioned suggestions look like a recipe for disaster to me.


by Mobar on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 06:16:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Certification is a terrible idea (none / 0)

you don't believe in competence. All businesses run like that, and the president is essentially a job, that should be done properly.  There should be standards, and while those can't stop anyone from running, they can give the people a way of making comparisons, and it would greatly enlarge the pool of possibilities.  

Know what else I think? I think the candidates need to vet themselves, with any financial associations and any sexual indiscretions.  They should be bonded, and required to return money to donors if it turns out they were hiding something with the reckless belief that it would stay hidden.

Judges get rated by the ABA and they can get appointed and/or confirmed anyway, but they do get rated.  


what a relief
by anna shane on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 06:28:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Certification is a terrible idea (none / 0)

I don't believe in competence? How about I have faith in my ability to judge the competency of candidates for office without the DNC telling me how to vote. Your notions become more ridiculous the more you detail them.

All businesses run like that, and the president is essentially a job, that should be done properly.

Proving my point. You want an executive committee to consider the candidates, select one and then put it before shareholders for a pro forma approval vote.

And I'm not sure how you imagine that your proposed system would enlarge the pool of candidates.


by Mobar on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 06:41:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Certification is a terrible idea (none / 0)

not at all - i want to see school transcripts and I want to hear the job interviews, read the published papers, listen to them debate for debating skill, I want substance. There is no doubt that many could be rated as highly qualified, and expand the pool based on excellence.  Not choose for me, how silly, but give me some real comparative tools to help me make the best choice. It takes too long to find out, the campaigns start before we know much of anything, the vetting is done by the press when they feel like it and in their own biased terms.  People without much money backing can't get noticed, and the pool is limited to those with connections or fat backers.  

When there is some objective starting place, then future presidents would know what they needed to do to gain the right experience, and it would not all have to be in elected office.  


what a relief
by anna shane on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 06:49:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Certification is a terrible idea (none / 0)

But who decides the standards?  How to account for the fact that the Dems are a big-tent party, and have varying standards for what kind of 'credentials' matter to them?  I agree with you that this kind of thing should be the purview of the media, and that the media largely fails at that job.  I don't agree, though, that any kind of party certification would be 'objective' in any meaningful sense.  Don't you think it would be subject to the same kind of inside-baseball distortions that affect, say, supderdelegate endorsements?  (See Penn's memo in The Atlantic where he cites 'personal relationships' as the most important factor in SD endorsements.)  Don't you think that kind of credentialing, run by the party, would reflect the DNC's priorities over those of the voters?

As someone else pointed out, this kind of thing is what the Internet's for.  I, and many other Democrats I think, did lots of research on the candidates and made my choice accordingly.


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 08:20:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Certification is a terrible idea (none / 0)

how about all of us. And there can be many measures, but I think an examination coving American history, geography, political geography, civics, and constitutional law, something like a GRE for politicians.  Published papers, debating skills, proven ability to win an election would be good.  

I think if they had to put up a bond against secrets they'd vet themselves. It's not like they have to be perfect, only that they have to tell.  

I'd like to see training jobs, in government, or whatever good training jobs would be. Some say a CEO is good experience.  

Some of it is ideas, and some of it a proven ability to compromise and get something done, and a lot of it is the ability to hire the best and retain them.  If a candidate is highly proficient in x number of areas, they'd be rated highly qualified, in fewer, qualified, and in hardly any unqualified.

If it's sunshine, we can all see the test questions, we can all evaluate how much weight to give it.  Anyone can run, that's the law, and the party can't disqualify anyone, but either the party or some independent arm of the party ought to be trying to raise the bar.  And, the pugs might have to follow, and we could be saved from another bush nightmare.  


what a relief
by anna shane on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 08:32:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

well, sure (none / 0)

but politics isn't an objective game.  There's no possible 'test' you could make for someone to be 'objectively' qualified to be president.  Abraham Lincoln, for example, surely would have scored far lower on such a test--especially one tailored to 1860 standards!--than either William Seward or Salmon Chase, his very distinguished and experienced rivals for the presidency.  But Chase would have made a disastrous president, I think, and Seward, while slightly better, did not have the qualities Lincoln had.  Qualities that had little to do with experience or book smarts and lots to do with judgment and temperament.

My point is just that politics, like everything else, isn't objective.  I'm not hating on the proposal, it's probably not a bad idea, just opining that it won't be a cure for whatever you think ails the primaries as they are now.

[Usual caveat about the uselessness of contrafactuals.]


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 08:42:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: well, sure (none / 0)

no, but there are patently unqualified people who run and some of them have won. it's like drug testing, why shouldn't congresspersons be subjected to random drug testing, bus drivers are, and congresspersons drive the nation.  They make the rules for us, but they don't follow them.

I think we should drug test all candidates.  

Certification is just the first step, then comes all the other stuff that is intangible.

You can have a great teacher who really connects with his students, but if he can't read very well he isn't going to be able to teach reading, is he.  Which test questions do you honestly think John McCain could answer correctly?  


what a relief
by anna shane on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 09:08:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: well, sure (none / 0)

Oh, I think he'd do fine on factual questions like what's the Ninth Amendment or what's the Supreme Court's doctrine on abortion rights.  (Though wouldn't it be fun to see Obama pwn McCain on some kind of Constitutional Law examination?)  The tricky part is that the things that voters care about can't be reduced to right/wrong answers on an exam.  What's the appropriate level of gov't intervention in the economy?  There's no 'right answer' to that question, even among Democrats.  How should a senator have voted on the AUMF, given all that was known at the time?  Again, hard to come up with a 'right answer.'

Let me add if I may, anna, that I've always appreciated the civility with which you post here.  I read your stuff at Alegre's too and, disagree as I almost always do, have always found it the most consistently thoughtful writing there.


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 09:16:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: well, sure (2.00 / 0)

well, there have to be a whole lot of questions. I may be wrong, but I think John is losing it a tad, and he's very well briefed and he's an old pro so I expect him to be on his best behavior and to have learned how to respond, he now has the best handlers training him, but on a Q&A, i think he'd flub big.  Barack might too, unless he was told there would be a test, then I'm sure he'd study for it and ace it.

We're all nice at AC, we don't all exactly agree with each other, and we kick stuff around and we joke and stuff and there is some damn good advice for Barack over there, I hope he has someone visiting and giving him reports.  


what a relief
by anna shane on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 09:29:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"We're all nice at AC" (none / 0)

Well, I'm gonna have to disagree with you there, espcially in light of the current FP diary about the Reagan/Kennedy effect.  (And perhaps, ahem, your own comment in that thread about brain tumors?)

Anyway, thanks for the back and forth.


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 09:36:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "We're all nice at AC" (2.00 / 0)

that was a joke.  I sometimes get a tad wacky.  


what a relief
by anna shane on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:30:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

great idea (2.00 / 1)

I didn't think of essay questions, nice.  And we could read their answers, not just find out how they scored. but if a guy can tell whether a foreign government is a democracy and what kind, or a whatever and name the prime minister or the dictator and do that five-hundred times, I'd guess he's at least studied and knows there is a world.  A fifth grader knows more than George.  


what a relief
by anna shane on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 09:33:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

how was there cheating? (none / 0)

who said that? I'm curious


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 03:34:58 PM EST

Re: how was there cheating? (none / 0)

One would merely have to revisit the comments from the usual suspects to find instances where Obama was accused of cheating for merely making the most of the system as it was.

I'd rather not name names, but if you insist...


Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 03:58:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: how was there cheating? (none / 0)

I think you mean comments about fairness, I don't think there are comments about cheating.  


what a relief
by anna shane on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 09:09:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: how was there cheating? (none / 0)

There were such remarks regarding Indiana.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 11:24:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: how was there cheating? (none / 0)

if ur talking about the 100% stripping of the delegates, i think you should check your facts.

If you're talking about the "fairness" factor, that doesnt say anything about cheating.


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 09:44:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Looking to Revise Democratic Nomination (none / 0)

Expected move. Obama had to overcome about a 100 super-delegate deficit right off the bat, so he knows how much of an additional burden that adds.

Putting the power back in the hands of the voters is never an unpopular sentiment as well.


by TCQuad on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 03:40:53 PM EST

OBAMA being honest? (1.33 / 3)

I am sorry, as I see it, he is only trying to reduce Superdelegates
(which I believe should be completely scrapped). I think that is because Superdelegates was the only way in the end that Clinton could have won.

If he was REALLY BEING HONEST, he would have scrapped caucuses. His lead was mostly based on caucuses.

And If he was REALLY REALLY BEING HONEST, he would have scrapped the delegate system and only counted the total number of votes in the end.

But, then, we would have a honest politician. Not going to happen in my lifetime.


by ann0nymous on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 03:41:02 PM EST

Re: OBAMA being honest? (none / 0)

Enjoy your cynicism. Nobody else does.


Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 04:03:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OBAMA being honest? (none / 0)

she has a point, this one is over, but she has a good point. Rules are always for those who come later, never for the one that writes them.  


what a relief
by anna shane on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 09:11:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OBAMA being honest? (none / 0)

Going by total number of votes means that the nominee would be decided by heavily democrat states every year.  It would also mean that all states would move to open primaries where democrats and republicans alike vote.  And finally, it would make voting on issues other than the party's nominee problematic.

I mean, if you think that's the best system then that's your opinion.  It is not, however, the only honest solution.  What's wrong with proportional allocation?  Personally, I think a direct vote would be kind of slipshod, vulnerable to manipulation, and would make the southern states useless.  Does that belief inherently make me a liar?


If you hold a cat by the tail you learn things you cannot learn any other way.
by Jess81 on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 06:08:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OBAMA being honest? (none / 0)

you could do closed primaries.  And it would reflect the entire country, not the proportional set up given to us by our forefathers, who saw the states as little nations.  It's not that way, and if we going to win elections we need a way of nominating the one that can best win the election.  Super's are supposedly for that purpose, to correct things when someone's votes came mainly from states that would never be Democratic.  


what a relief
by anna shane on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 09:13:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OBAMA being honest? (none / 0)

You COULD do closed primaries, but you wouldn't.  If a state can double its turnout - and therefore its influence - by opening up their primaries they will.


If you hold a cat by the tail you learn things you cannot learn any other way.
by Jess81 on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 05:24:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Looking to Revise Democratic Nomination (1.00 / 1)

Obama moved to weaken the mechanism that almost cost him the election yawn

Call me when he moves to make GOP votes in Alaska less powerful than democratic votes in california.

Call me when caucuses are removed

Call me when it says that ALL states get to vote or have their legislatures vote for them so that their votes are counted.

Obama's reforms are a power grab plain and simple.


by dtaylor2 on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 03:44:47 PM EST

Re: Obama Looking to Revise Democratic Nomination (2.00 / 1)

Almost cost him the election? Again the reality-deficient PUMA squad strikes.

Most superdelegates supported Obama in the end. He needed neither their presence nor their absence to win.

The only thing that lack of superdelegates would have done is reduced the drama and reduced the amount of leeway that the reality-deniers had to keep fooling themselves.


by Aris Katsaris2 on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 04:01:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Looking to Revise Democratic Nomination (none / 0)

Obama in theory is ahead by 50 delegates.

If fact the vote hasn't been taken yet.

But 55 fewer super delegates and he wouldn't be talking like the nominee.


by dtaylor2 on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 04:08:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Looking to Revise Democratic Nomination (2.00 / 2)

And if there were no superdelegates, Hillary would have been finished the morning after Super Tuesday.

We can do this all day if you want.


Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 04:13:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

In theory (none / 0)

Had there been no superdelegates, Obama would have won the nomination square on May 20; that's when he passed the threshold of delegates minus the weight of supers.

There'd be no arguments then.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 04:15:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In theory (none / 0)

Great minds....


Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 04:16:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Great Minds... (none / 0)

Notice that Hillary won the popular democratic party majority vote and all Obama's changes are intended to move the process AWAY from a candidate like Hillary winning against a candidate like Obama.


by dtaylor2 on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 04:21:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Huh? (none / 0)

"Popular democratic party majority vote?"

Care to run that by us again in non-PUMA talk?


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 04:23:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huh? (none / 0)

Yes, and if you only count votes from states that begin with the letter 'A', and you  double the votes from states that have a high number of tobacco chewers, Hillary wins very easily.

LMAO


Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 04:30:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huh? (none / 0)

I agree with most of your comments, but not this one.  This is a ridiculous claim you're making here.  All you have to do is actually count the votes cast for Hillary vs. those cast for Obama, and she clearly had more votes than he.  It's in fact Obama who has to do fancy footwork to claim otherwise.


by slynch on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 05:14:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huh? (none / 0)

It was snark.

But it's not nearly as simple as you are making it out to be. Hillary only wins the pop. vote if you count FL and MI, which were beauty pageants held in violation of DNC rules (rules which Ickes and Wolfson not only signed off on, but helped craft), they were not real primaries, and you also have to not count any votes for the 8 or so caucus states that didn't report results.


Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 05:18:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huh? (none / 0)

actually, she had more votes if you count caucus states estimates from RCP and count Florida and Michigan.  Not excluding anyone.  If you want to exclude Michigan, I think she still won.  There's no real reason to exclude Florida.  Both were on the ballot.

But again, you're having to exclude voters to have Obama win the PV.  The MI and FL issue is stupid--these are still voters who expressed their preferences, especially in FL.  There are no hard and set rules that required excluding MI and FL--and look, Obama is now trying to get them fully seated at the convention.

This is all old news; it just seems ridiculous for people to still be holding on to this view that Clinton only won the PV under all sorts of weird scenarios.  Count the votes, and she won, plain and simple.


by slynch on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 07:45:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

all of this confusion (none / 0)

about 'caucus estimates' and 'beauty pageants' explains why the Democratic Party does not use the 'popular vote' as the metric for determining the nomination.


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 08:22:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: all of this confusion (none / 0)

no one claimed this was the metric for claiming the nomination.  The only claim was that HRC got more votes than BHO.  And she did, period.


by slynch on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 08:37:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I know (none / 0)

I'm just laying one fact along side another.


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 08:44:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huh? (none / 0)

I meant to also add:

If by "fancy footwork", you mean actually giving Obama credit for certified votes cast and not counting results from unsanctioned contests, then you're right, I suppose.


Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 05:20:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huh? (2.00 / 1)

Hillary got more Votes from Democrats than Obama.

A lot more.

Super delegates exist for exactly this type of race.

Obama gets most of his delegate lead from Caucuses with a small number of voters many of whom are not democrats.

Supers went with Obama.

But he doesn't like that they could have gone the other way.

But having the power to go either way and break these kinds of ties is EXACTLY why superdelegates exist.

If you want super delegates out then also throw out super voters aka caucuses.

But strategically superdelegates exist to protect us from the uninformed who don't understand that the electoral college system sometimes renders the more popular candidate unelectable.

If for example Obama was toast in California, New  York, or New Jersey and would have lost it to McCain then the supers would have gone for clinton in mass to save us from certain failure despite the delegates.

And thats why they exist.


by dtaylor2 on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 04:35:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Riiight (2.00 / 1)

You know, I've never signed a party identity card.  I'm sure I'm listed as an "Independant" or "non-affliated" voter in the registration office.

Despite the fact that I've voted with progressives my entire voting career, I guess, to you, my vote means less in a Democratic primary than someone who signed a card?  And here I thought that the Republicans were the party of exclusion...

The primaries are an endurance trial designed to get the strongest candidate through tests of organization and popularity with both Democrats and general constituencies.  The day we start counting party members for more is the day we start down the path of travesties like the U.S.S.R.'s Communist party.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 05:02:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Riiight (none / 0)

YES

People in the party and only people in the party should determine the party candidate.

I welcome you to sign the card.

But if you are uneasy signing it and locking in to the democratic party its fair for the democratic party to be uneasy with you determining the candidate that we are locked in with.


by dtaylor2 on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 06:28:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

here's the problem (none / 0)

"should determine" does not equal "actually determines."


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 08:23:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Riiight (2.00 / 1)

How exactly do you propose to deal with states that have no registration by party?


by ces on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 08:36:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Great Minds... (none / 0)

Republicans seem to be more successful in their primaries, because it's winner takes all and reflects the Electoral College for the most part.

In the general, there will be no district apportionment...just U.S. states and people voting for the popular will of the respective states.


by Check077 on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 06:23:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Looking to Revise Democratic Nomination (2.00 / 1)

Are you referring to the FL and MI rules that were put in place by Ickes and Wolfson?

Nice try, but you fail.

And what's wrong with Caucuses? Something wrong with letting the most dedicated members of the Democratic Party decide the nominee? something wrong with letting states decide whether they want caucuses or not?

I'm guessing you prefer not letting too many informed people tip the scales over the low-information voters.

When it comes to the Presidential Election, all votes should be equal. When it comes to the Democratic Nomination process, the most dedicated activists and party members should, and do, dictate how their nominee will be selected.


Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 04:02:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Looking to Revise Democratic Nomination (2.00 / 1)

"And what's wrong with Caucuses? Something wrong with letting the most dedicated members of the Democratic Party decide the nominee?"

Yes.

If you are not a supporter of Democracy as 1 vote 1 person in private with no undue burden on working people to be at a specific place for 2 hours then you are not a supporter of democracy.

The democratic party needs to kill Caucuses before they kill us.

After Obama loses to McCain maybe we should revisit the value of having the party favorite beat out by the "most dedicated members" favorite.


by dtaylor2 on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 04:07:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Looking to Revise Democratic Nomination (none / 0)

After Obama loses to McCain? Ha, you'd like that I'm sure.

So cynical and bitter. Must be sad to see the dynasty end, eh?


Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 04:15:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Looking to Revise (none / 0)

I don't want to see that but I expect it's what will happen. Our party always ends up losing when we have 'professor' candidates.  We never learn.  Starting with Adelaide Stevenson, who ran against the old-school McCain, General Eisenhower.  Stevenson was a brainiac, and he was right on on our issues, but he lost big to the man-of-the people stuttering war hero.  


what a relief
by anna shane on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 09:20:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Looking to Revise Democratic Nomination (1.33 / 3)

We have caucuses in small broke (mostly red) states because they're cheap and they encourage activism and party building.  Or maybe they're all a conspiracy between Donna Brazille, Karl Rove, Howard Dean, and Obama, as I was informed a few days ago by another delusional 'PUMA'.


by Whash on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 04:42:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Looking to Revise Democratic Nomination (none / 0)

cheap is the only reason, but it's not democracy and there is no trading of democracy for some bargain or some team building effort. It used to not matter because no one did what Barack did before, and now that it's been done, it's a loophole that must be closed.  


what a relief
by anna shane on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 09:22:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Funny you weren't having that arguemnt (2.00 / 1)

until it was convenient for you...


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 05:09:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:Puma's in Denveer (none / 0)

Tell ya what...
This is the educational film broadcast in Denver (as their public service FCC obligation...)
on the best way to deal with the two carloads of Puma's arriving here...
note: alegre was not injured in the making of this documentary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzJ0a7R0U CU


"harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instantaneous lobotomy"
by nogo postal on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 05:24:05 PM EST

Re:Puma's in Denveer (none / 0)

al is home taking care of her kids. She works and she blogs and she takes care of her kids.  She blogs a lot, what more do you expect?  She's a terrific person, she just doesn't happen to agree with you.  


what a relief
by anna shane on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 09:23:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's sad that this has become the narrative. (2.00 / 0)

And all the "bones" that Obama casts to the most disappointed of the Hillary supporters (if you can still call them that) seem to always backfire because of their huge, insatiable need for more apologies, more recognition of their wounded feelings, more gestures of respect.  It's all wasted, really, and it just perpetuates the storyline into the convention.

Does anybody think the Hillary supporters really cared about the caucus system in some states before this election?  No.  Bill Clinton was in a powerful position to take action against it in 1996, but he didn't, because people don't usually change a system that has worked to their benefit.  So this is all just a symbolic sop for the "Hillary wuz Robbed" crowd, to make them feel that they are still loved and welcome.  Rather than feeling satisfied, some of them (we can see it here) will only feel condescended to and more motivated.  

Obama has not just made concession after concession to the "catharsis," to the point where the media are already calling this convention Clinton-Palooza, but now Obama has welcomed a discussion about the validity of the system by which he was nominated, even though it's the same system that the Clintons won by in 1992 and 1996 and they thought was peachy keen.  


by Dumbo on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 08:20:48 PM EST

Re: It's sad that this has. (none / 0)

nobody cared before there was such a close contest. when it's close like this, people care. It would be the same if it came out the other way.  We should all care. We need to nominate the best candidate that can win, and that has to be the strongest one in the most Democratic states, those states we need to win the GE.  What's important is that we win.  You can be right day and night but that won't get him elected.  


what a relief
by anna shane on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 09:25:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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